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The realization sets in

COW Blogs : gary adcock's Blog : The realization sets in
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So,

When I posted the first comments on FCPX 4 weeks ago, I thought I was going to be strung up and burned at the stake by some of the commentary. Now everyone seems resolute to the fact that FCPX is finally out and it does not do a lot of what its predecessor did.

I am waiting for Lion at this point, since the people I am talking to are waiting for the release also.
There is no guarantee that when Lion ships any of the tools will work there anymore than they do now.

Someone will make it work, there is too much money on the line for any of it to be left on the table, someone will snatch it up if Apple does not want the Pro space.

Avid and Autodesk have made great products for a long time and Premier has come a very long way since some of us used it to join the pre-FCP multi-media revolution.

I just keep thinking, with all of that power underneath FCPX when that epiphany of knowledge the app is mining will make itself aware.

Posted by: gary adcock on Jul 13, 2011 at 5:05:54 amComments (110) FCP, FCPX
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Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Mitch Ives
[gary adcock] "I am waiting for Lion at this point, since the people I am talking to are waiting for the release also.
There is no guarantee that when Lion ships any of the tools will work there anymore than they do now. "


I think this is the big mystery. Why release FCPX in June, when Lion is coming in July. There was definitely a reason, I just haven't figured it out.

More to the point, why release FCPX before December? They could have worked for 6 months with 3rd party developers and had the XML/OMF thing solved... the output of real video to AJA, Decklink, Matrox (as opposed to desktop display)... maybe even Multicam. Then this whole forum would have been real thin...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by David Battistella
Yep.

It's the big wait right now. Lots of potential. Lots of legacy gear on the line. People are curious and offended. The mist interesting discussions I have seen sine FCP was initially released.

I see potential, but that can only be realized by Apple and third parties. The other day I thought about when serial control was finally available in the original FCP, it might have been version three, but it was nice to move tape on a digibeta deck from my keyboard.

Nostalgia can be very tricky.

David.

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert

@David Battistella
by Michael Aranyshev
"The other day I thought about when serial control was finally available in the original FCP, it might have been version three, but it was nice to move tape on a digibeta deck from my keyboard."

Serial Device Control was available in FCP since version 1.

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Greg Burke
[gary adcock] "t does not do a lot of what its predecessor did."

What are you talking about it does everything iMovie does and More!

I wear many hats.
http://www.gregburkepost.com
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Andrew Stone
It is way past time "to move on" folks.

This business about bolting on functionality obviates the whole reason why FCP was a success, in large measure. An editing environment, like a DAW, which more often than not involves a complicated workflow with numerous vendors must have a lingua franca or a common language of functionality built into it's core in order to succeed in the marketplace. AVID MC has it, Adobe Premiere has it, FCP 6 & 7 have it (had it), FCPX doesn't have it nor will it...ever.

If you don't get this then there is no point in discussing it. Pick your new editing environment(s) and move on.

Look Apple has/is going to cost each of us 10s of thousands of dollars when you factor in learning time, unproductive time while getting up to speed and the requisite hardware and software cost involved in moving to a new editing environment. Move on folks and stop flushing your life and livelihood down the toilet anymore than it already is as a result of Apple's malfeasance towards the video editing industry.

-Andrew Stone

--
Steadicam & Camera Operator
-1
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
Hello Andrew Stone - Steadicam and Camera Operator,

There are those of us in post engineering who think that this app has a chance of being something great. Something that is going to eventually change the way our creatives work and what they are able to accomplish. At it's core it has the ability to enable the creative to try things they never would have dared before. Things they never had time to try under tight deadlines and high pressure.

Give it a little time and relax on all the change now or die talk. FCP 7 and all your other tools didn't stop working when X showed up in the app store. They didn't stop working in my shop...

I'm frankly getting tired of all the moaning and bashing. Take a good look at what it does at its core. For any of you that haven't downloaded it and witnessed what it is capable of, then maybe you should stop commenting. This tool has more power under the hood than other video tools that cost way over 100k only a few years ago.

This thread started off with a comment about wondering if people would come around to understand the shear power of what it is that has been given to them. Obviously not.

Best of luck,
Keith

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/MOJO/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Conlee
[Keith Koby] "Things they never had time to try under tight deadlines and high pressure.
"


What would those things be, Keith? I don't currently feel hindered by my NLE. I'm as familiar with it as the back of my hand and I don't recall ever thinking, "Gee, if only I had words associated with these pictures I could go so much faster." In fact, with PhraseFind, I can find dialog (which is often the most important thing for me) phonetically. No additional metadata needed.

Chris
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
What would those things be, Keith?

Those would be visual edits with heavy plugins that take time to render. Unlimited RT chugging through every 3rd or 4th frame or at low res isn't really that cool. And then the render and the changes... It's time consuming and time is the most valuable thing in the edit suite. If you haven't taken the time to play with media in the new final cut, do it. Throw on several plug ins and then do a geometry change. This is something that brought 7 to its knees. X plays it back without issue. That is impressive. That is the future.

Your plugins will be there in time. Patience. The API hooks that devs have are reported to be deeper in fact. People (not you necessarily) need to stop complaining that their editorial world has ended. It hasn't. In the meantime 7 works just fine. So you can continue doing business.

Once the third parties get their plugins and graphics cards and thunderbolt peripherals into place, Then make the $300 investment on your laptop and learn. The interface changes take a few hours to get used to really. Most of your tools are still there (in a different place) and the ones that aren't will be.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
Gary -

"Someone will make it work, there is too much money on the line for any of it to be left on the table, someone will snatch it up if Apple does not want the Pro space."

I'm sure this is true of all the I/O features - reference monitors, tape capture, omf, edl , xml - but I am not so sure about third parties being able to change some of the essential design decisions.

I use multi-cam for most of my work and I know that the FCPX team is supposed to be "working on it" for the next major release - whenever that is.

However I have doubts as to how a program that eschews all notion of a "viewer" window is going to handle multi-cam. I've also read that there are no longer any "sync" markers in the timeline - an absolute essential for the way I work. I don't see how this type of functionality can be corrected by third parties.

"with all of that power underneath FCPX when that epiphany of knowledge the app is mining will make itself aware."

The 64 dollar question. I don't think I'm going to like the answer.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
+2
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Bill Davis
I'm just remembering back to this point in the original FCP experience in 1999.

A vastly smaller subset of the tiny group of people using the software in V1.0 started hearing scattered voices bemoaning the fact that FCP *did NOT* use the AVID "jkl-io" convention for keyboard control of the playhead and marking edits.

A month or two later, it did.

I suspect this is precisely why it's called "development."

:)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner
+1
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"I'm just remembering back to this point in the original FCP experience in 1999."

This analogy, which is repeated ad nauseum on this thread, doesn't hold up. This whole idea that FCPX 2011 equalls FCP 1999 rests on the false assumption that the NLE market as a whole is in the same development cycle now as it was then. It isn't.

In 1999 the whole idea of NLE design was unsettled. It was not clear at that point which features were mandatory and which were not. It is quite understandable that the JKL conventions weren't included in FCP 1.0, because it hadn't been established that they were indeed "standard conventions."

Let me put it this way - if a brand new professional grade NLE by a company, let's say AJA, came out last month with the same feature set as FCPX, they would have gotten disastrous reviews and probably been pulled from the market. Actually it simply is unthinkable. The required feature set of a "Pro" NLE is now established and if you don't come up to the bar, you don't get into the game.

This was not true in 1999 - the world of NLE's was wide open. In many ways it was much more fun, except if you ended up backing the wrong horse ( I did, twice.) It was an emerging market. It is now a much more mature market and the standards are totally different. And the "it's in development" excuse is no longer valid. If it's in development, then you don't charge for it, you bring in Alpha Testers, because X is plainly not ready for Beta Testers at this point.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
+1
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Craig Seeman
[Herb Sevush] "if a brand new professional grade NLE by a company, let's say AJA, came out last month with the same feature set as FCPX, they would have gotten disastrous reviews and probably been pulled from the market. "

Apple may be the only company that can successfully do what they are attempting. They may or may not succeed but I have a hunch that as the feature set and third party support expands, so will its user base. Despite the cranky folks on this forum and some others, I'm also seeing much praise and excitement over the potential for a faster and more organized workflow. The numbers who like it are not small.

+1
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"I have a hunch that as the feature set and third party support expands, so will its user base."

Wow, your really going out on a limb there Carnac.

"I'm also seeing much praise and excitement over the potential for a faster and more organized workflow"

See Gary's original Post. Everyone see's the potential, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The potential I see requires a major re-write of the GUI, including a dedicated viewer and assignable audio tracks, while keeping the underlying engine. What does your potential look like?

"The numbers who like it are not small."

Many numbers are not small - people who like The Real Housewives of Orange County, voters for George Bush, people who think Bud Lite is a beer. Which is why I feel like an alien in my own country. But I'm not getting a frontal lobotomy just so I can agree with others. Life is too short.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
+1
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Craig Seeman
[Herb Sevush] "Wow, your really going out on a limb there Carnac."
Simply following what I see. Third party support is happening..

[Herb Sevush] "The potential I see requires a major re-write of the GUI, including a dedicated viewer and assignable audio tracks, while keeping the underlying engine. What does your potential look like?"

Audio will be assigned through metadata. That's how FCPX works. I don't see any need for track assignments. If the metadata can be assigned on edit as easily as editing to a track, it'll be there for use in the database. One will be able to use "all VO clips" or whatever depending on the function you need to perform including export for DAW work. Relational Databases are far more configurable than spread sheets.

[Herb Sevush] "Many numbers are not small"

Apple is a business and the numbers as they impact their bottom line are what they are concerned about. Sans any scientific polling, you can look at the number of 4 and 5 star reviews and see there is a large base that likes FCPX. It doesn't have to be the majority. The base just has to be large enough for developers to invest R&D for it. As features grow it will have increasing opportunity to meet the needs of some of those not happy with it.

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"Relational Databases are far more configurable than spread sheets."

And therein lies the flaw. They are so configurable that bad design renders them slower and worse than a spreadsheet. The data is totally at the mercy of the interface - bad design decisions there will restrict the ability to meaningfully interact with the data.

I'm not arguing against relational databases, I'm arguing against Apple's interface design. I'm arguing that an interface designed to make it easier for someone to edit a 5 minute home movie (see Steve Job's Imovie speech) is a bad choice for a wedding videographer with 4 cameras to deal with, let alone someone trying to cut a 16 camera concert for broadcast.

I've designed relational databases and I know that it's not a magic word - badly designed they suck worse than a good spreadsheet template.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Craig Seeman
[Herb Sevush] "I'm not arguing against relational databases, I'm arguing against Apple's interface design. I'm arguing that an interface designed to make it easier for someone to edit a 5 minute home movie (see Steve Job's Imovie speech) is a bad choice for a wedding videographer with 4 cameras to deal with, let alone someone trying to cut a 16 camera concert for broadcast."

I think the numbers of people who will move into FCPX will prove otherwise. I think you'll find FCPX moving into mid level corporate markets where a person does editing as just one of several tasks and need to use a tool with a fast learning curve. The complaints are predominantly coming from FCP7 editors but there is a larger pool of people who have never used FCP7 or have a preconceived notion of editing as per Premiere, Avid, etc. who must do editing and they will gravitate to FCPX precisely because the GUI is easy for them to understand. The database is hidden and can exposed by those who want to manipulate it. For others, they see and need the simple entry form on the surface.

There are database builders and there are end users and the end users will find it easy to use. The builders will customize once all the customization tools are exposed.

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"I think you'll find FCPX moving into mid level corporate markets where a person does editing as just one of several tasks and need to use a tool with a fast learning curve."

Here we are, Craig, finally in total agreement. This is the precise argument most of the "nay sayers" have been making - that X has been targeted at the non-pro market. This doesn't mean 3rd parties won't go under the hood and try to adapt the product for that smaller niche "pro" market, it just means that it wasn't Apple's primary target.

And the question then is, for us "niche" guys, does it make any sense to build your work-flow around a product targeted for someone else. You can modify a Vespa all you want, but if your going cross country, shouldn't you be looking at a Harley?

And of course the question for Apple is, have they actually created an editing tool for the middle manager? I have no idea, and it's still way too early for anyone to tell.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Craig Seeman
[Herb Sevush] "Here we are, Craig, finally in total agreement. This is the precise argument most of the "nay sayers" have been making - that X has been targeted at the non-pro market. This doesn't mean 3rd parties won't go under the hood and try to adapt the product for that smaller niche "pro" market, it just means that it wasn't Apple's primary target.

And the question then is, for us "niche" guys, does it make any sense to build your work-flow around a product targeted for someone else. You can modify a Vespa all you want, but if your going cross country, shouldn't you be looking at a Harley?"


Time will tell depending on what Apple and third parties add. FCPX, in its current state is decidedly not for the niche. That may (or may not) be different a year from now. FCPX is so early in its development I wouldn't call it a Vespa. What we have is little more than a framework . . . a foundation. Some see the foundation as being extremely powerful but not yet exploited (and don't know if it will be).

Given the "marketing machine" that Apple is, I think the next year will be "interesting" and the tool will either become very powerful or be the ubiquitous Volkswagen.

Personally I even think iMovie import is a powerful "Trojan" as the corporate offices have used that, need to move to more powerful tools. Just days before FCPX release I was hit with that with one potentially big client. They had done work with me in past years with FCP. Their budget shrank and they went "in house" with iMovie . . . and in my meeting with them, they were very interesting in the iMovie FCP relationship (this a week before FCPX was released with iMovie import).

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Aindreas Gallagher
[Craig Seeman] "does editing as just one of several tasks"

i think that could be another fundamental misconception on apple's part - they've nuked the app FCP to go fishing for a broader field of editing in - if you build it they will come style, and don't mind the charred FCP7 corpse underfoot -

but well here - editing in mid corporate tends to be tied as practise to other duties, word processing, website maintenance, etc. Journalists for example use a bare bones editor that has script insertion and timing built in - its a V1 A2 - but it's windows and it's tied into station architecture - like newsedit, and stuff like that. I think Apple have construed in their minds eye an as yet imaginary market segment that will shell out 300 bucks for rad FCPX much as they would for the iphone that is feeding it video.

I still think Apple said to themselves at the meeting "iMovie - 50 millions users" - (did they poll that??), "snowboarders" "students" "magnetism" "media delivery" "itunes" then they all turned to Jobs and started chanting

"Kwisatz Haderach"

"Kwisatz Haderach"

"Kwisatz Haderach"

then they all ceremonially headbutted the embedded apple logos on the boardroom table and left the room.

apple have disappeared up their fundament.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
+1
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
Aindreas -

It's almost worth the FCPX debacle just so I could have the pleasure of reading your posts.

A Dune reference on a Wednesday morning and then this image...

"then they all ceremonially headbutted the embedded apple logos on the boardroom table and left the room."

I thank you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Aindreas Gallagher
de nada.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
@Aindreas Gallagher
by Shawn Miller
"Kwisatz Haderach"

"Kwisatz Haderach"

"Kwisatz Haderach"

Lol, awesome. As I remember it... the Bene Gesserit got their Kwisatz Haderach, he just wasn't what they expected, and he ended up "teaching them a lesson they would remember in their bones".

@Craig

"I think you'll find FCPX moving into mid level corporate markets where a person does editing as just one of several tasks"

I just don't see this happening. AFAIK, The vast majority of people who do full time corporate work, work on Windows, and most of them/us already use one of Adobe's Creative Suites... so what's our incentive for even trying FCPX... (not that you CAN try it for free, mind you)? On top of that, adding Macs in a Windows environment can be a hard sell to an IT department, when your company's primary business is not video production. Just my opinion.

Thanks,

Shawn

@Shawn Miller
by Craig Seeman
@Craig

"I think you'll find FCPX moving into mid level corporate markets where a person does editing as just one of several tasks"

I just don't see this happening. AFAIK, The vast majority of people who do full time corporate work, work on Windows, and most of them/us already use one of Adobe's Creative Suites... so what's our incentive for even trying FCPX... (not that you CAN try it for free, mind you)? On top of that, adding Macs in a Windows environment can be a hard sell to an IT department, when your company's primary business is not video production. Just my opinion.


That runs counter to what I've found in some businesses. Buy a Mac and get free iMovie. FCPX $300. I've found many business who have ONE Mac and it's there "toy" edit system. Not every business goes this route but this does happen often enough.

@Craig Seeman
by Shawn Miller
"That runs counter to what I've found in some businesses." Buy a Mac and get free iMovie. FCPX $300."

I don't doubt that, obviously some companies do have one or two Macs for secondary edit stations, or sometimes for contractors coming in to do work. But, I don't think it changes the fact that (again) many if not most of us who work in medium to large corporations mainly use the Adobe Creative Suite.

"Buy a Mac and get free iMovie. FCPX $300."

That brings up a good question, what's the incentive for someone (like me) who already has multiple dual Xeon workstations, After Effects, PhotoShop, Premiere Pro, Illustrator, Cinema 4D, etc. at their disposal, to ask their manager to put in for a Mac... to get "iMovie for free" and try FCPX for $300? If I'm the new target market (a non-professional in the eyes of many FCP and Avid users), then what does FCPX offer that I don't already have? On my off time, I make short films with my "little" AF100 using the same postproduction tools I use at work... how does Apple appeal to someone like me? FCS3 wasn't compelling enough to get me on a Mac (though a 64 bit suite with an updated Shake might have), so what about FCPX does get me there? :-)

Thanks,

Shawn

@Shawn Miller
by Craig Seeman
It may not appeal to you at all. It doesn't have to appeal to everyone. It appeals to some, I believe and that some is very large, I believe.

There are many businesses who don't have Adobe Production suite. I've run into many cases where some middle manager has to attempt doing video and looks for the least expensive avenue. Some may already have MacBookPros for example some may want an excuse to get one, some may not want to use the same computer they're doing their office work on to do the editing work. All these numbers add up.

@Craig Seeman
by Herb Sevush
Craig -

I believe Apple has well under 10% of the computer market, and that is mostly non-corporate. I doubt if they have even 5% penetration in corporate America. That being the case, what makes you so confident that the "number" your talking about is all that big.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
@Herb Sevush
by Craig Seeman
If a corporation has 90 Windows workstations and 1 Mac that's 1%. It may be all they need. It's not the percentage of Windows PCs but the number of Businesses that may have 1 Mac for editing.

Certainly the Mac was big with Desktop Publishing but the overall market penetration was still very low. Often the DTP Mac was the only Mac(s) in the company.

That Flip4Mac Studio sells may indicate the number of Mac that must encode WMV because they are Mac islands in a Windows work environment.

It's actually seems to have become common (anecdotal though) that business filled with Windows computers have employees that have a Mac laptop (and now iPad and iPhone as well). The employee's Mac laptop may well be the editing computer in some cases unless and until the company buys one for the office.

Re: Corporations buying into Mac
by Joe Murray
[Craig Seeman] "It's actually seems to have become common (anecdotal though) that business filled with Windows computers have employees that have a Mac laptop (and now iPad and iPhone as well)."

Any company that is currently Windows based and does enough research about Apple to learn what they've done with FCP X will probably feel pretty good about staying with their PCs. An even harder sell now.

Joe Murray
Edit at Joe's
Charlotte, NC
@Herb Sevush RE: apple market share
by gary adcock
http://macdailynews.com/2011/07/13/idc-apple-mac-took-10-7-share-of-u-s-pc-...

Herb, I do not think you are taking into account the iForce in mobile devices, you cannot look at those metrics the same as before.

Now we are talking about something like 15% of all internet traffic comes from Apple devices. the iPad alone virtually controls the tablet space( over 1% of ALL web traffic is viewed via the iPad)

but do not forget for a momment that we are also talking about the second largest corporation in the world right now in value and market share.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

@Craig Seeman
by Shawn Miller
I do agree that the type of user you're describing will almost always default to using the most inexpensive tools that their companies will pay for... usually, that means Camtasia, Windows Movie Maker, Vegas Movie Studio or whatever software that came with their camera. I've worked in 'The Enterprise Space' for about 15 years, mostly for fortune 500 companies... and the overwhelming number of these folks are not using Macs at all. Now the question is still (I believe), can Apple attract the mid level corporate user... for iPhones and iPads yes... but for FCPX? I think that remains to be seen.

Shawn

@Shawn Miller
by Craig Seeman
Camtasia on Windows is much more expensive than Camtasia or ScreenFlow on Mac.

Interesting that amongst Windows NLE users I see in the various forums that it is the Vegas users who show strong interest in FCPX. Anecdotal of course but many of them say that FCPX may move them to the Mac.

It may be in Apple's calculus that they believe those moving to Avid and Premiere may mostly stay on Mac whereas the Windows non Avid, non Premiere folks might move from Windows to Mac. If there goal is to increase Mac's attractiveness to some Windows NLE users, they may succeed.

@Craig Seeman
by Shawn Miller
"Camtasia on Windows is much more expensive than Camtasia or ScreenFlow on Mac."

Yes, but much less expensive than buying a Mac+whichever software.

"If there goal is to increase Mac's attractiveness to some Windows NLE users, they may succeed."

I don't know, this seems a little thin... I just don't see many editors moving from Windows to a Mac for FCPX. Maybe an upgraded 64Bit FCP 8 with more support for native file formats and a lower price (maybe $500 USD). Or, as I've said in other threads, a 64Bit FCS with updated Shake and Blu-Ray capable DVDSP... I would probably by a Mac for that. But FCPX just doesn't seem that compelling on it's own (not to me anyway, I've already got Vegas 9).

Thanks,

Shawn

Re: @Shawn Miller
by Richard Cardonna
Comparing vegas to fcpx is like comparing media composer to pinnacle studio. That said:

I was about to switch to mac but was waiting for the new fcp, glad i waited cause i am not jumping in.

I currently use PP at my job, fcpx for some clients and mc at my home studio. I am not in the top 10 percent but fcpx wil not work for me.Started on edit*

The good side of this is that in the last year I have been able to aquire both mc and pp for about 1350.00 about 4k off list. (was a liquid user and got a great offer from avid t oupgrade from pinnacle to mc for just 500. everything included,) now i get p.pro for just 850.
Not that i am an app collector but now i got the best tools.

So maybe when or if fcpx pro becomes pro to the top 10 percent maybe apple will give a special offer and include a mac.

richard
Re: @Shawn Miller
by Shawn Miller
@Richard

Now let's be fair here, the difference in capability between Vegas and FCPX probably isn't THAT big. They both have their quirks to be sure, but let's have respect for both applications. My comment was in response to Craig's assertion that some Vegas users might be willing to buy a Mac for FCPX. Looking back at my post, I admit that it was poorly worded. I should have asked, "What features in FPCX make it compelling enough for a Vegas user to drop a couple grand on a new Mac to use it?" It just seems to me that the number of Vegas user willing to do that are small... again, that's just my opinion.

Thanks,

Shawn

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Arnljot Bringedal
I think it´s totally ridiculous that we are debating whether Apple is doing "smart business" or not, by releasing FCPX.

I couldn´t care less what the value of the AppleStock is or will be.

I just wanted a decent upgrade to the tool that I have used loyally for many years...

And FCPX is not it.

Oh, and by the way:

" Hey Apple, where`s the new version of SHAKE you promised us many years ago? "

Oh yeah... you decided to EOL it ...

*** Norwegian videojournalist & Editor***
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Herb Sevush] "I'm not arguing against relational databases, I'm arguing against Apple's interface design. I'm arguing that an interface designed to make it easier for someone to edit a 5 minute home movie (see Steve Job's Imovie speech) is a bad choice for a wedding videographer with 4 cameras to deal with, let alone someone trying to cut a 16 camera concert for broadcast."

This is meaningless. FCP X currently lacks multicam; of course it's bad for multicam shoots. Multicam will be back in the next major release.

People keep claiming FCP X isn't suitable for long form work, but I have yet to hear a remotely coherent justification of this claim. It offers more features for organizing large quantities of footage, and more features for organizing complex sequences, than FCP 7 did.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
[Chris Kenny] "It offers more features for organizing large quantities of footage,"

Really? Production sound comes in BWF-poly files. They have timecode, reel, date, scene&take metadata embedded. FCP7 reads and displays it just fine. You can sift, sort and search based on this metadata in FCP7. FCPX reads them too. What else can it do with it FCP7 cannot?
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Michael Aranyshev] "Really? Production sound comes in BWF-poly files. They have timecode, reel, date, scene&take metadata embedded. FCP7 reads and displays it just fine. You can sift, sort and search based on this metadata in FCP7. FCPX reads them too. What else can it do with it FCP7 cannot?"

To answer the more general question, here are the new features that I believe are particularly useful for organizing complex, long-form projects:

1) FCP X allows clips to be independently named in sequences.

2) FCP X allows clips to be tagged in sequences, and tagged clips can be quickly found via the timeline index.

3) FCP X allows searchable per-clip notes.

4) FCP X has several hundred built-in metadata fields, and unlimited custom metadata fields can be added.

5) FCP X has compound clips, which make it easy to hide timeline complexity irrelevant to 'big picture' editing, or segment a master sequence into multiple subsequences that can be edited on their own timelines. Embedded audio is visually collapsed into video by default, which also helps reduce the visual complexity of the timeline.

6) FCP X has storylines and connected clips, which provide explicit organization for clip relationships that were only implied in FCP 7.

7) Smart keyword collections allow clips to be referenced through multiple organizational schemes, not just one hierarchical organizational structure (which is what bins provided).

8) FCP X adds explicit placeholders and todo markers, making it easier to keep track of things to come back to.

9) The scrubber, particularly when used in conjunction with the browser's filmstrip view, makes it extremely fast to visually scan large quantities of footage.

10) FCP X actually warns about exporting sequences with offline footage.

11) FCP X has a built-in, almost entirely automatic proxy workflow. This makes it very easy to, for instance, leave large files on an external drive, generate proxies on your laptop's internal drive, and edit long-form projects without having to carry drives around. (Or manually manage offline/online workflow.)

12) FCP X makes it really easy to consolidate the footage required for a project on a new drive. This might not sound important, but as an online editor, I can't even tell you how often we have to go back and forth with editors because of problems this feature will solve.

That's off the top of my head. Give me a while and I can probably think of more.

There's a common phenomenon with new products (when they're very different from existing products) where people see all the things that are missing and understand the importance of those things, because they're looking for those features, and they're familiar with how those features are used... but they don't see the things that are new, or understand the importance of those, because they're not looking for those features, and it takes a while to work through the use cases for a feature you've never seen before.

I think we're seeing a lot of this with FCP X.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
I'd rather hear the answer to the specific question for a change.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
I'd rather hear the answer to the specific question.

Anyway

1) FCP X allows clips to be independently named in sequences.

So does FCP7

2) FCP X allows clips to be tagged in sequences, and tagged clips can be quickly found via the timeline index.

FCP7 allows to put markers on clips and markers can be quickly found with a "Find" command and a marker list.

3) FCP X allows searchable per-clip notes.

So does FCP7

4) FCP X has several hundred built-in metadata fields, and unlimited custom metadata fields can be added.

Cool. A couple of dozens FCP7 allows is a plenty though.

5) FCP X has compound clips, which make it easy to hide timeline complexity irrelevant to 'big picture' editing, or segment a master sequence into multiple subsequences that can be edited on their own timelines. Embedded audio is visually collapsed into video by default, which also helps reduce the visual complexity of the timeline.

Compound clips look exactly as regular clips. With more than a couple of compound clips on the timeline they'll become impossible to spot in a "big picture" editing. Bad design.

6) FCP X has storylines and connected clips, which provide explicit organization for clip relationships that were only implied in FCP 7.

An edit in FCP7 holds together without gaffer tape.

7) Smart keyword collections allow clips to be referenced through multiple organizational schemes, not just one hierarchical organizational structure (which is what bins provided).

Cool. Is it possible to have one assistant keywording all shots and another all production sound in the same project while I watch dailies?

8) FCP X adds explicit placeholders and todo markers, making it easier to keep track of things to come back to.

How much more functionality this provides comparing for instance with a FCP7 marker? With a FCP7 text generator?

9) The scrubber, particularly when used in conjunction with the browser's filmstrip view, makes it extremely fast to visually scan large quantities of footage.

With the amount of garbage shot nowadays because "storage is cheap" the intent is clear. But it's just promoting bad working habits.

10) FCP X actually warns about exporting sequences with offline footage.

Nice

11) FCP X has a built-in, almost entirely automatic proxy workflow. This makes it very easy to, for instance, leave large files on an external drive, generate proxies on your laptop's internal drive, and edit long-form projects without having to carry drives around. (Or manually manage offline/online workflow.)

May I have a LUT and a Scene/Take burned in on the proxy?

12) FCP X makes it really easy to consolidate the footage required for a project on a new drive. This might not sound important, but as an online editor, I can't even tell you how often we have to go back and forth with editors because of problems this feature will solve

FCP7 Media Manager's bad reputation is somewhat undeserved. Besides there is always a bigger fool for any foolproof device.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Michael Aranyshev] "1) FCP X allows clips to be independently named in sequences.

So does FCP7"


No, it doesn't. Change the name of an instance of a clip in the sequence, and FCP 7 changes the names of all other instances of that clip in the sequence (and of the master clip in the project).

[Michael Aranyshev] "FCP7 allows to put markers on clips and markers can be quickly found with a "Find" command and a marker list."

While markers can be used to attach information to clips, in some sense, it's awkward to do this in projects and then then carry that information into sequences (what frame of the clip do you attach a marker to?), it's awkward to attach multiple 'tags' this way, and FCP 7 has no real equivalent of the timeline index.

[Michael Aranyshev] "3) FCP X allows searchable per-clip notes.

So does FCP7"


What feature are you referring to here?

[Michael Aranyshev] "4) FCP X has several hundred built-in metadata fields, and unlimited custom metadata fields can be added.

Cool. A couple of dozens FCP7 allows is a plenty though."


In other words "I've gotten used to the limitations of FCP 7, so I don't notice those anymore".

[Michael Aranyshev] "Compound clips look exactly as regular clips. With more than a couple of compound clips on the timeline they'll become impossible to spot in a "big picture" editing. Bad design."

Compound clips are easy to spot in the timeline index because they show up with a different icon. That said, it would be nice if there were a way to filter for them in the timeline index.

FCP 7 is hardly guiltless on this measure, with generators and nested sequences being a very similar color or regular clips in the timeline.

[Michael Aranyshev] "An edit in FCP7 holds together without gaffer tape."

This is not really addressing the point.

[Michael Aranyshev] "Cool. Is it possible to have one assistant keywording all shots and another all production sound in the same project while I watch dailies?"

Um... why are so many people pretending, since FCP X came along, that FCP 7 had seamless multiuser project access?

[Michael Aranyshev] "How much more functionality this provides comparing for instance with a FCP7 marker? With a FCP7 text generator?"

A fair bit, actually.

[Michael Aranyshev] "11) FCP X has a built-in, almost entirely automatic proxy workflow. This makes it very easy to, for instance, leave large files on an external drive, generate proxies on your laptop's internal drive, and edit long-form projects without having to carry drives around. (Or manually manage offline/online workflow.)"

There's no LUT support at this time, though there are some interesting future possibilities depending on what level of ColorSync support FCP X has (which I haven't been able to establish yet).

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
[Chris Kenny] "No, it doesn't. Change the name of an instance of a clip in the sequence, and FCP 7 changes the names of all other instances of that clip in the sequence (and of the master clip in the project)."

It's actually a feature. Was introduced around FCP 3 and welcomed by most. Want to rename an instance —Make Idependent.

[Chris Kenny] "what frame of the clip do you attach a marker to?"

The one I'm gonna use in the edit. You know, I actually watch the stuff I cut. I don't skim.

[Chris Kenny] "What feature are you referring to here?"

Log Notes, Comments. They are searchable.

[Chris Kenny] "In other words "I've gotten used to the limitations of FCP 7, so I don't notice those anymore"."

No. It is simply "they built a quite comprehensive professional NLE with 1995 tech"

[Chris Kenny] "FCP 7 is hardly guiltless on this measure, with generators and nested sequences being a very similar color or regular clips in the timeline."

Like most males all my errors in xrite color test are in the blue-green part. I have no problem spotting nested sequences in FCP timeline though.

Regarding timeline index — can you send it to Numbers or Pages? Bento perhaps?

[Chris Kenny] "This is not really addressing the point."

When you change node order in node composer you change the picture. When you change connections on FCPX timeline you don't change the edit. Clip connections are not about editing. They are about holding this bad design together.

[Chris Kenny] "Um... why are so many people pretending, since FCP X came along, that FCP 7 had seamless multiuser project access?"

FCP had none. That's why people were looking forward to next generation FCP. They've got single user home video archive management utility instead.

[Chris Kenny] "There's no LUT support at this time, though there are some interesting future possibilities depending on what level of ColorSync support FCP X has (which I haven't been able to establish yet)."

LUT support wasn't the only point. FCPX proxy approach isn't significantly different from what you get in compositing and grading apps. For editing up it's not enough. To make a good one for an editing app one has to think more in terms of "digital workprint/digital negative".
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Michael Aranyshev] "[Chris Kenny] "No, it doesn't. Change the name of an instance of a clip in the sequence, and FCP 7 changes the names of all other instances of that clip in the sequence (and of the master clip in the project)."

It's actually a feature. Was introduced around FCP 3 and welcomed by most. Want to rename an instance —Make Idependent."


I understand the argument for either behavior, but the FCP X behavior is more optimized for timeline organization. And actually, the entire metadata interface in FCP X is more optimized for doing this sort of thing; naming clips in the context of the timeline is annoying on FCP 7, because metadata for timeline clips is edited in a modal window.

[Michael Aranyshev] "[Chris Kenny] "what frame of the clip do you attach a marker to?"

The one I'm gonna use in the edit. You know, I actually watch the stuff I cut. I don't skim."


You may want to tag a clip before you necessarily determine what exactly frames you'll later use in the edit. Markers simply aren't a reasonable substitute for tags. This is why FCP X has both.

[Michael Aranyshev] "[Chris Kenny] "What feature are you referring to here?"

Log Notes, Comments. They are searchable."


That's what I thought you were talking about. But again, the interface makes using these awkward if you want to display more than a few words of text, and there's the modal window thing again.

[Michael Aranyshev] "Regarding timeline index — can you send it to Numbers or Pages? Bento perhaps?"

It's well established that more export features are coming. Exporting the timeline index hasn't been explicitly mentioned, but it wouldn't be too surprising.

[Michael Aranyshev] "When you change node order in node composer you change the picture. When you change connections on FCPX timeline you don't change the edit. Clip connections are not about editing. They are about holding this bad design together."

I disagree entirely. I believe the realization that clip connections (in general) made more conceptual sense than unassociated clips in generic stacked containers (i.e. tracks) is the fundamental organizing principle of the new timeline, not something added at the end to support other behaviors.

[Michael Aranyshev] "[Chris Kenny] "Um... why are so many people pretending, since FCP X came along, that FCP 7 had seamless multiuser project access?"

FCP had none. That's why people were looking forward to next generation FCP. They've got single user home video archive management utility instead."


Apple reportedly mentioned at the London briefing that they were working with companies developing media asset management tools around FCP X. Depending on the API hooks Apple provides, FCP X's built-in metadata support could make multiuser asset management far more powerful than it ever was in FCP 7.

[Michael Aranyshev] "LUT support wasn't the only point. FCPX proxy approach isn't significantly different from what you get in compositing and grading apps. For editing up it's not enough. To make a good one for an editing app one has to think more in terms of "digital workprint/digital negative"."

On, realistically, some small fraction of projects. This is a fairly sensible omission for a 1.0 release.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
[Chris Kenny] "You may want to tag a clip before you necessarily determine what exactly frames you'll later use in the edit. "

I told you. I actually watch the footage I edit.

[Chris Kenny] "the interface makes using these awkward if you want to display more than a few words of text, and there's the modal window thing again."

FCP Browser isn't modal. Log Notes and Comments are editable in the Browser.

[Chris Kenny] "I believe the realization that clip connections (in general) made more conceptual sense than unassociated clips in generic stacked containers (i.e. tracks) is the fundamental organizing principle of the new timeline, not something added at the end to support other behaviors."

I see some patches used to keep clips together. You believe they are storytelling devices. I believe they are pieces of gaffer tape. To explain my point of view it takes one sentence: "a permanently rippling timeline needs some shit to glue stacked clips together". To explain your point of view it would take a couple of pages of text. Occam's razor.

[Chris Kenny] "Depending on the API hooks Apple provides, FCP X's built-in metadata support could make multiuser asset management far more powerful than it ever was in FCP 7."

Sure. The problem is people who need multi-user editor are saying "Good buy, Apple. Been good while it lasted". By the time Apple finally comes up with the API it will be irrelevant.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Michael Aranyshev] "[Chris Kenny] "You may want to tag a clip before you necessarily determine what exactly frames you'll later use in the edit. "

I told you. I actually watch the footage I edit."


This makes no sense. One of the most useful applications of tagging is organizing footage prior to deciding exactly which footage is used.

[Michael Aranyshev] "FCP Browser isn't modal. Log Notes and Comments are editable in the Browser."

Awkwardly, in tiny columns, and with additional steps if you're trying to attach a note to, say, a clip you already have selected in the timeline.

[Michael Aranyshev] "I see some patches used to keep clips together. You believe they are storytelling devices. I believe they are pieces of gaffer tape. To explain my point of view it takes one sentence: "a permanently rippling timeline needs some shit to glue stacked clips together". To explain your point of view it would take a couple of pages of text. Occam's razor."

a) I just explained my point of view in a couple of a sentences.
b) That's not how Occam's razor works.

[Michael Aranyshev] "Sure. The problem is people who need multi-user editor are saying "Good buy, Apple. Been good while it lasted". By the time Apple finally comes up with the API it will be irrelevant."

I believe you (and many others) have an extremely inaccurate view of how time-sensitive all of this is. Many facilities don't even install incremental upgrades to established edit products until they've been out for 12 or 18 months... the idea that FCP 7 shops are all going to be on Avid by October or whatever makes no sense.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
[Chris Kenny] "I believe you (and many others) have an extremely inaccurate view of how time-sensitive all of this is. Many facilities don't even install incremental upgrades to established edit products until they've been out for 12 or 18 months... the idea that FCP 7 shops are all going to be on Avid by October or whatever makes no sense."

Precisely. Our 7 ecosystem is working just fine and will be for at least the next 9 months. We could probably stretch that past 12 months if necessary.

There will be no lion or any NLE changes here until things settle down and are good and ready.

The issue of change with apple is always hardware/os related for us. When we eventually need to expand or replace old CPUs, we will be forced to keep metadata controllers in front of clients, and that causes the big round of upgrades. It is somewhat unusual for us to make an upgrade based on needing a software feature set. We will milk our existing infrastructure for as long as we can.

I guess it is easier for a one man operation to change, but to me, talking about switching to anything right now makes no sense. Especially before people see what Lion brings to it. Certainly, it seems most prudent to see what is announced at IBC (if not NAB 2012) before jumping to any new platform.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
Keith -

So let's work out the math.

In 9 months, when you're eco-system is aged, FCPX will have been out for less than a year, many of the necessary "pro" features will have been out for less than 6 months, it is unclear if multi-cam will even have been released by then. So at that point, according to Chris's 12-18 month wait for an incremental upgrade, you would NOT have FCPX as an option.

What will you do, considering that FCPX is not an upgrade but a total migration to what everyone has agreed is merely a 1.0 release?

Who is going to bet their business on migrating to an experimental, untested , barely passed Beta stage software when there are other proven workflow's around that are easier to train on because they obey standard editing conventions and easier to communicate with from your older workflow?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
I'm not sure you understood what I was writing, and I'm not really sure why you even care. I suggest you start researching your imminent change in NLE over in the AVID and APP forums. But, if you are really interested in our schedule, here it is - nothing set in stone, with plenty of contingencies.

We will be looking to migrate to Lion between April and June of next year. The reason for switching to lion will be based on replacing aging hardware. Depending on how apple plays the lion upgrade, they may ship new systems with the inability to install the previous OS. We'll know the answer to that soon enough. It has happened to us several times in the past. The change to Lion is trickier than the change from Leopard to Snow because of changes to fibre channel protocol in Lion. We would typically move slower. For example, we are just now getting the majority of our systems to SL, but that kind of slow movement probably won't be possible next go round.

By July - August, we will be trying to make a switch to a different NLE - depending on what is released at NAB. If we need to, and everything is as it is now with dev lion gm, then fcp 7 will still be running here much longer. The move to a new editorial app for a facility involves much more than installing it. There's training, media re-organization, possible transcoding of mountains of files etc. Easier workflows always make the jump first. Harder workflows are last and at a clean breaking point like end of projects or the holidays. After all of that we will begin preparing for the armageddon. IIRC, that's supposed to drop in mid December. If we are still up and running, January 2013 will be the point where the transition to a new NLE will be complete.

Besides the lion thing, sounds pretty familiar, huh?

X and whatever follows has serious potential and it has a strong possibility of filling the role of a network's NLE for the next 10 years or so the same way 4 -7 had for us over the last 7 years. It's not set in stone that it will be our solution, but I see no reason to knock it the way you and others in this forum are continually doing. As a matter of fact there are big areas of the app that deserve to be acknowledged as great.

Complaining about how it was released and the lack of key features at launch is acceptable. If no one complains, nothing gets fixed. But saying it is dead or never will amount to anything and that you must switch now to something else is ludicrous.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
Keith -

Sounds like a reasonable and prudent business plan.

A few questions for you though, if you don't mind:

You say you will switch to Lion next April to June, do you expect to be running FCP7 then? What will you do if FCP7 runs buggy on Lion?

Are you confident that third party drivers for an EOL'd software will be written for Lion?

I imagine you have no plans to expand before next summer, but if you do how will you manage that?

The reason I responded to you at all is that while I agree that most houses will not do anything for at least the next 6 months, I find the notion that there won't be a large exodus over the next year questionable.

I think many houses have delayed upgrades based on NAB 2010, when it was obvious that Adobe and Avid had pulled ahead of Apple, and the timetable for them to upgrade is coming on. Walter Biscardi is a well known example and he has already committed to switching. My own timetable is for an equipment upgrade next February, 2012. FCPX could not possibly, based on both your and Chris's conservative and prudent schedules, possibly be a contender then.

If FCPX is truly to be thought of as 1.0 software and according to you, no reasonable facility would change anything for at least a year after the release of even an upgraded mature product as opposed to a brand new product, then that means that EVERYONE who needs to upgrade during the next 12 months will have to switch to someone other than Apple. I don't think that is an insignificant number.

"But saying it is dead or never will amount to anything and that you must switch now to something else is ludicrous. "

I couldn't agree more. Many who have to switch now may very well come back in the future, if the program proves to be robust.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
Yeah man you gotta do what you gotta do.

I think the best way I can answer your follow ups is to say future plans are full of contingencies and improvisations. Lots of backing up, making disc images, and being ready to revert. I've left large parts of our plans for next year out of this forum that can give us flexibility to roll back, but they are there. And of course you test before you update in any situation.

Look, I haven't once said X is a sure thing for us. It's budget season now and the complexities of explaining the situation to your bosses, finance, the CFO and even the CEO if necessary are not easy to deal with. Although, some of them are actually familiar with the drama from David Pogue and Conan believe or not. What I keep saying is the raw power at the core of X is incredible. It deserves way more respect than being labeled imovie pro or whatever.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by gary adcock
[Herb Sevush] "You say you will switch to Lion next April to June, do you expect to be running FCP7 then? What will you do if FCP7 runs buggy on Lion? "

The MAC platfrom is moving FORWARD to Lion, that means everyone and everything that runs on the MAC without regard will have to conform to the Lion OS. This is Not an FCP decision, this is a Platfrom decree.
You also act if FCP does not have any issues NOW???

[Herb Sevush] "Are you confident that third party drivers for an EOL'd software will be written for Lion?"

just because your computer worked yesterday, does not mean it will work today.

All this crap is working today, tomorrow is another day, but the hardware manufacturers have a VESTED INTEREST in making this work, what part of that are you not considering?

DId you read the orignal blog commentary regarding hardware that started this chain?


[Herb Sevush] " I agree that most houses will not do anything for at least the next 6 months, I find the notion that there won't be a large exodus over the next year questionable. "

Most Corporations fiscal year-ends were just at the end of June. That means they have an entire year to decide what to do, I will say in this financial climate, a larger number of companies are going to set and wait, only upgrading where they have too.

I will say this again, under Lion and Thunderbolt changes will happen. IBC is over 2 months away, we will start hearing and seeing about hardware by mid august from some of the lesser players, the big guns will hold back to use IBC as a launching point.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"The MAC platfrom is moving FORWARD to Lion, that means everyone and everything that runs on the MAC without regard will have to conform to the Lion OS. This is Not an FCP decision, this is a Platfrom decree.
You also act if FCP does not have any issues NOW???"


Gary, obviously I didn't make myself clear in my post.

I know, understand and am happy that Mac is moving on to Lion. It is precisely because I expect everyone to want to upgrade to Lion sometime in the next year that I wrote my post.

In the absence of Apple really saying anything, many have suggested that Apple's plan is to have users work with FCP7 alongside FCPX as their migration plan for the next year. That was the context for my remarks.

Apple has stated that FCP7 will run under Lion, but what does this really mean. I've been through 3 operating upgrades while using FCP (Tiger, Leopard, & snow Leopard.) Each one of them required numerous dot point upgrades to get the then current FCP to run smoothly. Apple has not indicated that there will be any updates to FCP7 under Lion, in fact everything they have done indicates otherwise. I'm very skeptical of what that means to anyone trying to stay with FCP7 until FCPX is ready for serious broadcast work.

As far as issues with FCP now, I do know that it runs a lot better after the 7.0.3 update came out. If Apple would commit to a 7.0.4 update for running under Lion I wouldn't have posted anything. But of course that is not the "Apple way."

"but the hardware manufacturers have a VESTED INTEREST in making this work, what part of that are you not considering?"

I was just raising a question. As soon as BM or AJA says they will make Lion drivers for FCP7 then I will be relieved. As the moment I'm sure they are working on FCPX drivers for Lion, but being ignorant in the wyas of drivers, I didn't know if these same drivers will also work for FCP7. If you say they will, then this issue is put to rest for me.

"Most Corporations fiscal year-ends were just at the end of June. That means they have an entire year to decide what to do."

I'm not as familiar with the ways of large corporations as you.

I would suggest there are a lot of smaller shops that have fiscal years that end anywhere from Jan 1 to April.

I would also suggest that a number of shops were planning on upgrading this spring, but because of speculation starting the year before, after 2010 NAB, they held off on doing anything until Apple would reveal it's plans. Walter Biscardi is such an example. These shops have already waited that extra year and they are going to move sooner rather than later. In any event, even if a company is planning to wait till June 2012 to make an upgrade, it is unclear that FCPX will be a reasonable choice at that point.

What I'm saying is that time moves on, and it is not inconceivable that 20 to 25% of the high end shops using FCP7 will migrate to another alternative by June of next year. That alternative may or not be Mac based.

I guess I'm saying this because of my situation. I've already waited almost to the point of obsolescence. If FCP isn't smoothly running under Lion by early next year I will have no choice but to migrate. If that is the case I doubt I will be buying any Mac Pro's in the near future. I don't think I'm alone.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Craig Seeman
Keith, thumbs up on a sane facility response. If you see my post on the Tekserve event it sound much like my brief conversation with Evan Schechtmen of OutPost Digital. In his case he's installing FCPX on most of his workstations so the editors have some time to get familiar with it. If they jump to it in a year, the learning curve will have already taken place, otherwise he'll be ready to move to another NLE.

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
Craig - I didn't know you were east coast! For some reason I thought you were LA bound... I was there last night too and brought 11 of my editors with me. It was a great event. I would say 8 out of 11 were encouraged by what they saw, 2 were still nervous and 1 was neutral. I'll look for your thread and post comments.

Keith
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"This is meaningless."

Just because you don't get the meaning doesn't mean it lacks it. You after all are the person advising business to plan for the future by buying FCP7 licenses on Ebay. You might want to take a trip over to the business and marketing forum and give that advise to Bob Zelin in his thread called "stealing FCP7."

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/17/874239

"FCP X currently lacks multicam; of course it's bad for multicam shoots. Multicam will be back in the next major release."

Whenever that will be, if Apple is to be believed. And then there is of course the question of implementation. Time will tell, but I don't have as much blind faith as you.

People keep claiming FCP X isn't suitable for long form work, but I have yet to hear a remotely coherent justification of this claim. It offers more features for organizing large quantities of footage, and more features for organizing complex sequences, than FCP 7 did.

I've never claimed anything like this, so I guess your reply comes under the heading of "meaningless." I take your word for it when it comes to those issues, you seem, in that area, to know what you are talking about.

My issues have to do with the apparent design principle of simplicity, as in hiding all the editing from the editor. I'm not in favor of that as a guiding principle. Single screen, single viewer, let's hide everything in a comp, let's hide the audio tracks from the editor. I think elsewhere someone said that FCPX makes the simple easier and the complex harder. Seems to capture the essential design philosophy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Herb Sevush] "Just because you don't get the meaning doesn't mean it lacks it."

It's meaningless because you say you're arguing against Apple's interface design, and then go on to exclusively discuss a missing feature, which has no direct connection to interface design.

[Herb Sevush] "I think elsewhere someone said that FCPX makes the simple easier and the complex harder."

People have made many such statements, but haven't bothered to concretely support most of them.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
People have made many such statements, but haven't bothered to concretely support most of them.

Yeah. I'm kind of shocked by the amount of rehashing of errant first day blog critiques and the coping and pasting of clever but untrue quips going on around here.

It seems to me that people just haven't really tried the app yet. Editors will have to go through for a few hours of hardship while they learn where everything is. But certainly, the potential X brings to the table far outweighs the pluses that 7 has. From my vantage, i've heard enough from the right sources to be convinced that the missing features will be there soon enough.

There will be other shoes that will drop soon enough, but that's what happens when you want to progress.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Conlee
[Keith Koby] "From my vantage, i've heard enough from the right sources to be convinced that the missing features will be there soon enough."

Hmmm. Not sure who your sources are, but I too have sources on the 'inside' and they tell me not to hold my breath. Time will tell, I suppose.

Chris
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"it's meaningless because you say you're arguing against Apple's interface design, and then go on to exclusively discuss a missing feature, which has no direct connection to interface design."

If you could read as carefully as you argue you would find that I was criticizing a design philosophy of "over simplicity" - it's not my fault that you think the ONLY problem with cutting a multi-cam project is lack of a multi-cam feature. You seem overly sensitive about that.

"I'm arguing that an interface designed to make it easier for someone to edit a 5 minute home movie (see Steve Job's Imovie speech) is a bad choice for ... "

Then I listed some types of projects. I'm sorry the list only included multi-cam, I think the apparent design principles of FCPX would be equally as bad for many other types of jobs. I've named my problems with X, to you, in many other posts, so here they are again -

Single screen design, single viewer design, lack of multiple assignable audio and video tracks, the insistence on connectivity to save the editor from loss of sync, even the huzzah's for comp tracks whose basic function is to hide information from the editor - all these indicate a workflow in which the default of the program is to simplify the timeline, apparently so that it won't intimidate a novice. I'm sure all these features can be turned off or worked around, but this is the apparent default nature of the design, and it runs counter to everything that works for me. Editing IS complicated, I need help managing the complexity, not help in trying to shield me from it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Herb Sevush] "Single screen design, single viewer design, lack of multiple assignable audio and video tracks, the insistence on connectivity to save the editor from loss of sync, even the huzzah's for comp tracks whose basic function is to hide information from the editor - all these indicate a workflow in which the default of the program is to simplify the timeline"

Whereas pro editors want the timeline to be as complicated as possible? I'm not sure I understand your point here, but it sounds vaguely like the sort of objection that we've seen with every UI advance in the last three decades.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"Whereas pro editors want the timeline to be as complicated as possible? I'm not sure I understand your point here, but it sounds vaguely like the sort of objection that we've seen with every UI advance in the last three decades."

Is that UI advance or UI change. Not every change is an advance.

This might be before your time but years ago I was equally unhappy when Word displaced Word Perfect as the standard PC word processor. Word was WYSIWYG and that clinched the deal - a real UI advance. Word Perfect, on the other hand, would actually let you see the underlying format codes and allow you to edit them directly. It also allowed for a very powerful scripting feature that could allow you to do wonders using search and replace on those underlying codes. Word couldn't come close. Every experienced writer I knew vastly preferred Word Perfect. But Word became the champ because it was easier for inexperienced users to see what their final document would look like.

I prefer to see the codes. I prefer knowledge to ignorance. I like to know what's going on and I'm not intimidated by a complex timeline. I actually find them quite lovely. I can look at a timeline alone, without viewing anything else, and tell a lot about a project. What can you tell about a compounded clip FCPX timeline just from the look of it?

Now I realize this is not everyone's methodology, it's not a majority opinion, but it is the way I work. I don't see the elimination of a visual representation of my work as a UI improvement. I think it's what you do if you are catering to novices.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Herb Sevush] "I prefer to see the codes. I prefer knowledge to ignorance. I like to know what's going on and I'm not intimidated by a complex timeline. I actually find them quite lovely. I can look at a timeline alone, without viewing anything else, and tell a lot about a project. What can you tell about a compounded clip FCPX timeline just from the look of it?

Now I realize this is not everyone's methodology, it's not a majority opinion, but it is the way I work. I don't see the elimination of a visual representation of my work as a UI improvement. I think it's what you do if you are catering to novices."


This is like arguing against folders, because Real Men can keep track of all of their files in one huge list.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"This is like arguing against folders, because Real Men can keep track of all of their files in one huge list."

No, it's like arguing against using icons in a finder. I never do, not in Windows or Mac. I always want the detail list, the one with the most information available. My son likes the icons. Hey, maybe he'll like FCPX.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Herb Sevush] "No, it's like arguing against using icons in a finder. I never do, not in Windows or Mac. I always want the detail list, the one with the most information available. My son likes the icons. Hey, maybe he'll like FCPX."

This makes no sense. Compound clips are a hierarchical organizational tool. They're far more analogous to folders than to icons.

Also, your implicit dismissal of icons as being for children is hilarious when considered in light of the fact that other people here are making (largely unfounded) claims that FCP X was designed by "OCD aspergers" types and focuses too much on data and not enough on visually-oritened workflows.

(And that criticism itself, in addition to being wrong about FCP X, also badly mischaracterizes OCD and Aspergers. But that's drifting off-topic.)

It would be easy to take the criticism of FCP X more seriously if it were more consistent and coherent. As it is, most of it looks like people trying to rationalize a knee-jerk negative reaction.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"other people here are making (largely unfounded) claims that FCP X was designed by "OCD aspergers" types and focuses too much on data and not enough on visually-oritened workflows."

I have never said anything like that and bringing it up in this discussion is a most egregious example of intellectual evasion and would make one think you had previous training selling used cars or worked in politics.

"Compound clips are a hierarchical organizational tool. They're far more analogous to folders than to icons."

That is true for what they are. How they are used visually in a timeline, and their ability to impart visual information to me as I work, is a whole other matter. Are they really that different from Nesting? I rarely use nests in FCP7 for the reasons I have already outlined.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Herb Sevush] "I have never said anything like that and bringing it up in this discussion is a most egregious example of intellectual evasion and would make one think you had previous training selling used cars or worked in politics."

No, it's not. The fact that FCP X is widely criticized, but that many of those criticisms conflict with each other, is valid evidence that those criticisms may be founded on something other than the actual behavior of the product.

[Herb Sevush] "Are they really that different from Nesting?"

They can easily be created and destroyed in-line, which I think makes them considerably more useful.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"The fact that FCP X is widely criticized, but that many of those criticisms conflict with each other, is valid evidence that those criticisms may be founded on something other than the actual behavior of the product."

You'd fail elementary logic with that kind of argument.

It's certainly possible that arguments on one side are asinine and the other arguments are bits of genius. Or it might be true in the cases of some arguments but not others. It is definitely not evidence of anything beyond the fact you presented - FCPX is widely criticized and many of those criticisms conflict with each other.

Of course that has nothing to do with MY criticisms, until you show me where I contradict myself.

Which, I maintain is the reason for all this dissembling. You don't have a real response to me and yet you can't let it go. What a quandary.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Herb Sevush] "It's certainly possible that arguments on one side are asinine and the other arguments are bits of genius. Or it might be true in the cases of some arguments but not others. It is definitely not evidence of anything beyond the fact you presented - FCPX is widely criticized and many of those criticisms conflict with each other."

Your mistake is confining yourself to induction, which is, in general too narrow a tool for reasoning about real-world events. Try the Bayesian approach.

The lack of consistency in FCP X criticism is indicative of widespread misunderstanding of the product. And given a prior of "FCP X is widely misunderstood by its critics", there is a higher probability that any specific criticism is a consequence of misunderstanding than there would be if such a prior had not been established.

[Herb Sevush] "Which, I maintain is the reason for all this dissembling. You don't have a real response to me and yet you can't let it go. What a quandary."

You don't really have an argument here. You're making assertions about FCP X like "It's designed for people editing five minute home videos", and then mentioning design characteristics of the product which do not in any way unambiguously point to that... while ignoring design characteristics that point in other directions.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"Try the Bayesian approach.

The lack of consistency in FCP X criticism is indicative of widespread misunderstanding of the product. And given a prior of "FCP X is widely misunderstood by its critics", there is a higher probability that any specific criticism is a consequence of misunderstanding than there would be if such a prior had not been established."


Yes the probability is higher, but since we haven't established what the probability would be without this "widespread misunderstanding" - this new higher probability might be 10% as opposed to 5%. That's not even getting into the idea of identifying how much higher is "higher."

In no way have you established that the probability is now even 30% much less 50%.

Basically the argument that other people criticizing X are stupid, therefore my critiques of X are tainted, is ridiculous.

That's the Sevush approach.

"You're making assertions about FCP X like "It's designed for people editing five minute home videos", and then mentioning design characteristics of the product which do not in any way unambiguously point to that... while ignoring design characteristics that point in other directions."

The five minute home video idea is a paraphrase of Steve Jobs description of the design philosophy that went into Imovie and is, I believe, relevant. I would call Imovie a thought experiment upon which the UI of FCPX was later built. I don't think X is an Imovie upgrade, but I also think some UI practices were developed there and influenced X. This is not a bad thing, it's actually a smart way to do something this complicated.

I am not asserting anything, I'm giving my impressions, which is why I am interested in the naming of things, among others. I'm still trying to see if there's a possible future for me with X. I do see the design characteristics that point the other way and this dichotomy is what I am trying to work out.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
Real Men can. Having Date Created, Date Modified, Size, Kind, Label etc. helps a lot. Spotlight search makes it trivial.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Michael Aranyshev] "Real Men can. Having Date Created, Date Modified, Size, Kind, Label etc. helps a lot. Spotlight search makes it trivial."

OK, but virtually nobody does this, and nobody claims that having folders is somehow unprofessional or that operating systems that support folders are designed for 'consumers'.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
I'm not "virtually nobody". I'm a real person. Folders aren't "non-professional". Folders without list view among other view options are. That's on a maker side. On a user side excessive use of folders within folders within folders is unprofessional.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Michael Aranyshev] "I'm not "virtually nobody". I'm a real person. Folders aren't "non-professional". Folders without list view among other view options are. That's on a maker side. On a user side excessive use of folders within folders within folders is unprofessional."

Folders were introduced as being an organizational tool analogous to compound clips. I'm unclear how your comments map back to those.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
[Chris Kenny] "This is like arguing against folders, because Real Men can keep track of all of their files in one huge list."

You implied not using folders is nonsense. I'm saying people do use folders for organization, but the more they have to organize the less they abuse them relying on sorting in a list view within folders instead.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
[Craig Seeman] "Audio will be assigned through metadata."

I keep hearing it over and over. What I don't hear is how exactly is it going to work beyond simple VO-SFX-Music tagging. When one theme fades out and another fades in, how do I tag it?
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Craig Seeman
[Michael Aranyshev] "What I don't hear is how exactly is it going to work beyond simple VO-SFX-Music tagging. When one theme fades out and another fades in, how do I tag it?"

There's a powerful engine under the hood. I'll be the first to admit they put that engine in a go-cart body. We'll have to see how it gets built out. I do believe tagging will have to happen on the edit as easily as sending to a targeted track. If the GUI is easy and tagging is as easy as targeting a track, it'll be good. If one needs to hit several keys it'll be a dog. That something can be done well doesn't mean it will. There's also whether the clip is going to be a connected clip or part of a Secondary Storyline (which would involve dissolves for example). That making an audio only dissolve is so cumbersome has me at "wait and see" as to whether Apple really exploits the engine they've built.

Part of good relational database design involves whether the data entry is easy or cumbersome. Some parts of FCPX are very easy and others are not intuitive at all.

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by gary adcock
[Michael Aranyshev] "What I don't hear is how exactly is it going to work beyond simple VO-SFX-Music tagging."

Assigning tracks via metadata is more like a patch panel than anything else- I have a track that I want to move to A1+A2 for Stereo or A1, A2 for dual mono, foreign language moves from A3 and to A6.
The Metadata allows for independant channeling via what ever output is delivered.



"When one theme fades out and another fades in, how do I tag it"

You do that when you set those in the timeline.

on output the file would grab that info and the file would be ID'd to have changes to that tracks volume controls at xx:xx:xx;xx and ending at xx:xx:xy;yy.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
[gary adcock] "The Metadata allows for independant channeling via what ever output is delivered. "

Sounds like going through your edit and setting output channels for every single clip on timeline one by one splitting multichannel clips along the way. I can bill a client for that but will he foot the bill?


[gary adcock] "on output the file would grab that info and the file would be ID'd to have changes to that tracks volume controls at xx:xx:xx;xx and ending at xx:xx:xy;yy."

It's not exactly what I asked about. Most post production mixers remove all picture editor's fades without even listening to them and start from the scratch. What I meant is when you fade one them out and fade another in they have to be on separate tracks. How is it going to work if both tagged "music"?
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by gary adcock
[Michael Aranyshev]
"[gary adcock] "The Metadata allows for independant channeling via what ever output is delivered. "
Sounds like going through your edit and setting output channels for every single clip on timeline one by one splitting multichannel clips along the way. I can bill a client for that but will he foot the bill?"



You bill your client to do the very same thing right now don't you? How different is this from assigning items to individual tracks then spending hours cleaning up the mess when your audio is bounced all over the place?

WTF is the difference, it is still billable time isn't it?

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
[gary adcock] "You bill your client to do the very same thing right now don't you? How different is this from assigning items to individual tracks then spending hours cleaning up the mess when your audio is bounced all over the place? "

It isn't different. Except my audio is not all over the place. I'm an editor. Planning and preparation used to be a part of job requirements.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by gary adcock
[Michael Aranyshev] "It isn't different. Except my audio is not all over the place. I'm an editor. Planning and preparation used to be a part of job requirements."


And they still are, that part of the job is never going to change.

Until there is a working solution we are all in limbo. I am just waiting, patience is a virtue.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by illya laney
Craig Seeman
"Audio will be assigned through metadata. That's how FCPX works. I don't see any need for track assignments. If the metadata can be assigned on edit as easily as editing to a track"

After Apple mentioned a trackless timeline, I thought metadata might be one way of handling audio assignments. From a real world perspective where I regularly output ProRes airmasters/HDCAM SR Tapes with 12 audio tracks, I feel the management and time spent handling this would be absolutely insane considering how many people can be involved with a show. I'm sure you know a few major networks/studios that require very very specific audio assignments and it'll only take a few mistakes before they start shopping for another post facility for the next season.

twitter.com/illyalaney

nextLAB Mobile
SpeedGrade DI
Resolve
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@illya laney
by Craig Seeman
Metadata assignment would have to be as easy and obvious as track assignments. I think it can be done. We'll have to see how Apple implements it.

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Sacci
[Herb Sevush] "Many numbers are not small... people who think Bud Lite is a beer"
Best quote of the the day. Have a virtual porter on me.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Craig Seeman
More appropriate quote then you think.
Anheuser-Busch probably finds Bud-lite highly profitable and widely consumed.
If FCPX were that widely consumed Apple would be quite happy I think. And I also think AJA, Blackmagic, Matrox, and the many plugin makers would make a fortune on their flavor enhancers.

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
No, Craig, it was exactly as appropriate as I thought. Financially successful total s**t made for the less discerning.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Bill Davis
The analogy was just a small comment with limited scope and point. Feel free to ignore it, it's truly not important.

See my other recent thread as to why I think the whole FCP-X debate is rapidly becoming mute.

It's a distraction from what's really happening out there. And the sturm and drang of this whole discussion is, IMO, perhaps based on our own inability to process the larger forces at work in our industry.

(And I'm as guilty as most in this - and trying VERY hard to step back from my personal issues and glimpse the larger truths of the editing industry - because unless I do that, I expect my business IS doomed - and that has little or nothing to do with FCP in ANY of it's forms.)

Peace.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Harlan
Thank you, Herb. Well said.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Herb Sevush] "Let me put it this way - if a brand new professional grade NLE by a company, let's say AJA, came out last month with the same feature set as FCPX, they would have gotten disastrous reviews and probably been pulled from the market. Actually it simply is unthinkable. The required feature set of a "Pro" NLE is now established and if you don't come up to the bar, you don't get into the game."

I strongly suspect that if a new vendor had shipped something with FCP X's feature set, and issued a statement a week later saying they were working on adding more pro workflow features, people would be extremely positive about that project's prospects over the coming year or two.

[Herb Sevush] "It was an emerging market. It is now a much more mature market and the standards are totally different."

The film/TV segment of the NLE market is mature. Virtually everything else in the video world, from acquisition to distribution, is changing at breakneck speed.

Who's more likely to win the future? A company continuing to target a mature (read: stagnant) market segment, as everything else changes around it? Or a company trying something new?

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
Oh Chris, I missed you, glad to see your back.

"I strongly suspect that if a new vendor had shipped something with FCP X's feature set, and issued a statement a week later saying they were working on adding more pro workflow features, people would be extremely positive about that project's prospects over the coming year or two."

And I strongly suspect they would get slammed. Let me know when you find a real world example to back your supposition.

"Who's more likely to win the future? A company continuing to target a mature (read: stagnant) market segment, as everything else changes around it? Or a company trying something new?"

But who's more likely to totally fail and fall flat on their face, pulling everyone down with them; a company continuing to target a mature market segment, or a company trying something new. You see the question can be asked both ways.

Even the question is full of Apple arrogance - "winning the future."

I was never interested in Apple's ability to win the future. I simply want to edit TV shows for money. That future is right now, and it's a lot darker today than it was a month ago.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
I was never interested in Apple's ability to win the future. I simply want to edit TV shows for money. That future is right now, and it's a lot darker today than it was a month ago.

Please man, you're really taking this too far. FCP 7 still opens on your computer and works just as it did the day before X showed up in the app store. You can go on making your living. If you want to learn a new software suite, there are several great forums on the cow where you can start getting great tips!

Maybe in a few months, take a step back and check out what is going on with X when you are not so upset. The potential for the new app is actually astounding if you step back and see the bigger picture for a minute.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"Please man, you're really taking this too far"

I don't know what I am supposedly taking too far, I was merely responding to an earlier post that talked about which company was going to "win the future." I certainly didn't come up with that sort of phrase.

As for it being darker today than a month ago, I've just had the software that is the center of my workflow EOL'd without notice. While it is true my software still works today I'm saddled with no legitimate way to add seats, no possible support, very uncertain ability to work with operating system upgrades (despite Apple's assurances.) I'm now faced with an expensive and time consuming workflow migration that helps me not at all. So saying things are worse for me today than a month ago is not "going too far", not from where I sit.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
Herb,

I've got 30+ seats and 30+ editors, assistants, preditors and producers in my facility in the same boat that you are in.

Unlike you, I'm not freaking out about it, because my facility works the same way it did the day before the app was released. Instead I'm looking at this new app and finding that it has incredible power and incredible potential. I realize that we have to change from 7 to something else, but we have time to do that.

Yeah change is expensive. Get used to it, man! Apple's in it to make a buck somewhere. Did you have to switch from Power PC to Intel? Is your intel not strong enough for the new stuff? At least this time that raw power at the base is only $300 which gives you room to purchase peripherals and plugs.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by gary adcock
[Herb Sevush] "As for it being darker today than a month ago, I've just had the software that is the center of my workflow EOL'd without notice."

No, I have to disagree here.

EVERYONE saw this at NAB, everyone talked about it afterwards, everyone has known since April what was happening with the interface and some of the tools like Log and Capture.

And this is not the first time this has happened. I can list D-Vision, Discreet Edit, Sony Xpri, Premier for Windows only, all put an end to a platform that people were editing on.

If you have given up- move on while you can, the crossgrade offers from Avid and Adobe will not last forever. I updated my MC v4.5 to v5.5 just last week, my Premier was already updated for S3D work.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"EVERYONE saw this at NAB, everyone talked about it afterwards, everyone has known since April what was happening with the interface and some of the tools like Log and Capture."

Did everyone see the EOLing of FCP7 on rollout day and the inability to open FCP7 projects in X. If so I must have been in the bathroom for the last few months because I certainly missed it. These are the anger items, the new design of X is minor compared to this.

"And this is not the first time this has happened. I can list D-Vision, Discreet Edit, Sony Xpri, Premier for Windows only, all put an end to a platform that people were editing on."

Having been EOL'd twice before (EMC and *edit) it doesn't mean I have to like it. I will have to say this for Discreet, after lying to their user base for over a year and then refusing to sell the code to interested third parties, they did at least communicate with the users and supply support for the next year. Apparently Apple doesn't see the need, being the 2nd most powerful company in the world and all.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Kenny
[Herb Sevush] "But who's more likely to totally fail and fall flat on their face, pulling everyone down with them; a company continuing to target a mature market segment, or a company trying something new. You see the question can be asked both ways."

Yes, absolutely. Apple in general is less risk-averse than some competitors, and is certainly taking a risk with FCP X.

But most of Apple's risks pay off in the long run. To the point that I find it rather confusing, given past history, that people are still willing to predict Apple's failure mere days/weeks after new product releases.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by gary adcock
[Chris Kenny] "I strongly suspect that if a new vendor had shipped something with FCP X's feature set, and issued a statement a week later saying they were working on adding more pro workflow features, people would be extremely positive about that project's prospects over the coming year or two."


What about RED then, isn't this what they did also?

they are still around, still making inroads, still in beta too.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"What about RED then, isn't this what they did also? they are still around, still making inroads, still in beta too."

Precisely, because they were in an emerging market space. If Panasonic came out with a new P2 camera that was as underdeveloped as the RED, they would have been laughed out of NAB. When you're working in a mature market segment the entrance bar is higher.

Show me the functional revolution that FCPX is bringing -not what's under the hood, but how it will revolutionize my workflow, and do things no other NLE can do, and then I'll understand why it should be given time to develop. It's not enough to be different, it needs to be better -- a whole lot better.

So far all I'm hearing about is compound clips, magnetic timelines, auto color correction on ingest and other features that I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole. Making it easier to post to youtube may be a revolution in marketing but not in editing.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by gary adcock
[Herb Sevush] "Show me the functional revolution that FCPX is bringing -not what's under the hood, but how it will revolutionize my workflow, and do things no other NLE can do, and then I'll understand why it should be given time to develop. It's not enough to be different, it needs to be better -- a whole lot better."


Sorry, I cannot make the blind see.

You are closed minded to the change, whatever way it goes for you.

Weather changes, kids growup, we grow older. Change is part of life, you seem to want to apply some rules to your world that are not held to this earth by Newtonian Rules.

NLE's die, sometimes abruptly, just like people do and there is not a damn thing you can do about it, but no one can show you the light until you are willing to open your eyes, you have not reached that place yet.

Avid and Adobe make great products, you should start there.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
Gary -

First I would like to thank you for all the help you've given thru the years to so many on this forum. I have been helped as much as anyone, and I really appreciate it.

Then I would like to say that you have no idea about my tolerance, aversion or even love of change, and your surreal response to my post is about the most condescending pile of poop I've ever had thrown my way.

I will simply take your response to mean that there is no functional revolution that you can articulate for FCPX.

"Sorry, I cannot make the blind see."

I have no need of opthalmological help, I can see the BS clearly.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by gary adcock
[Herb Sevush] "First I would like to thank you for all the help you've given thru the years to so many on this forum. I have been helped as much as anyone, and I really appreciate it."

Herb,
I too admire and respect you for your commentary and knowledge shown here also, I would not have posted such a flippant response to someone I had not conversed with before.


IMHO the anger overrides your message.

I started my first Cow article on FCPX with a " WTF?" notation,
I was one of the first to agree that this is not the tool for everyone and my intial reviews both here on the Cow and on Macworld.com were clear about this not being a Pro App. I am luckier than most, I have talked to people at AJA, Blackmagic and Matrox, both publicly and privately regarding what has been going on.

While all is not better, the pro space has been heard from, but there is no going backwards, I know it sucks, but time only progresses so we are stuck.

We talked about RED, 4 years ago when the RED One was first released, everyone said the same thing-No, No how, NO WAY, Stupid idea, never going to fly, no one will buy direct.

Now they are an industry leader, by breaking the rules and taking a chance. Yes it has been trying in the interim, and even now their hardware is still in beta.

Good or bad, it is the state of the world we live in.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
Gary -

I have a condition sometimes known as "Sicilian Alzheimer's" - it's where you forget everything except who screwed you over. It's often not productive, but it's the way I am. I will never use a Discreet product, under any condition, and *edit was killed about 7 years ago.

I've already purchased my Adobe cross-grade. The problem is, if I wanted to edit with Adobe or Avid I would have done that long before now. It's not that I'm all-that in love with FCP either, I have a list of changes to to FCP that I've been waiting to see implemented for over 7 years.

Other than being angry at the way Apple has treated me as a customer, what I'm most angry about is that I feel cheated - I was looking forward to trying a new product and a new workflow. It's just that I didn't see the depth of Apple's re-targeting. After the NAB sneak-peak there was all sorts of speculation about ways to turn-off the magnetic timeline - it was NOT a foregone conclusion that this was to be a youtube product.

I'm a full time multi-cam editor and Apple has not only EOL'd my current workflow, but they've pretty much given up on providing me another one.

And they've robbed me of the pleasure of trying something new: Here I am at the dealership in NYC, waiting to buy a brand new all electric car to drive to LA, when it turns out they're selling an electric moped. It might be the worlds greatest moped, but I'm not driving it cross country.

I'll eventually stop bitching and posting, but it won't be all that soon.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by gary adcock
[Herb Sevush] "but I am not so sure about third parties being able to change some of the essential design decisions"

I would never underestimate, OMF, XML& EDL.s are only types of data- modifing a data set is rather simple when you are mining as much metadata as this app is.

"The 64 dollar question. I don't think I'm going to like the answer."

I would like to think it is more about being prepared, people don't like the question either.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Herb Sevush
"... people don't like the question either."

Beautiful. Thanks for that.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Chris Walsh
Completely agree on multi-cam. I can't see how they'll execute it without some secondary viewing window, and would be surprised if they modified their single viewer layout in an interim or dot release.

So multi-cam will most likely be part of a paid, major release that must be at least a year off.

In some ways I think the 1999 analogy is apt... they've decided to start from scratch again, and it will take two or three major releases (and as many years) to get the new app to where FCP 7 was on June 20th.

So we'll see what happens. It will be a while before we see another keynote slide like the one that shows 54% penetration in the pro markets. In the near future, that slide will likely be part of an Avid or Adobe presentation.

Chris Walsh

http://www.musicfog.com
Silver Spring, MD
Final Cut & AVID MC5
Former Windows User and edit* lover
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Craig Seeman
[Chris Walsh] "So multi-cam will most likely be part of a paid, major release that must be at least a year off."

But Apple has already said multi-cam will be free (supposedly revealed accidentally at the London meeting).



[Chris Walsh] " can't see how they'll execute it without some secondary viewing window, and would be surprised if they modified their single viewer layout"

It may be in the guise of the expansion of the 2-up we now see when trimming . . . not that some of use would like that solution.

Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Jon Bagge
In some ways I think the 1999 analogy is apt... they've decided to start from scratch again, and it will take two or three major releases (and as many years) to get the new app to where FCP 7 was on June 20th.


I hear people using the 1999 analogy alot, and I don't think it's appropriate at all. I wasn't a FCP editor until much later, but my impression from back then was that there wasn't much FCP 1.0 did better than Avid if anything, except price.

In fact it was so cheap that people forced themselves to find ways of making it work simply because buying an Avid system wasn't even an option. Thus new businesses appeared that wouldn't even have existed otherwise.
Lots of enthusiasts and smaller companies then went to work writing tools and workarounds to make FCP a viable alternative. And Apple eventually joined in, and FCP7 was a solid editing system up until a few weeks ago.

This was all helped by Avid's general arrogance and incompetence at the time. If Avid had foreseen what was coming, I'm sure they could have killed off FCP. But anyway, that's ancient history.

FCPX is not much cheaper than the alternatives. $299 is only for the editing application, and once you add on the extras to make it useful (when they arrive...) the price isn't going to be too far off Avid or Premiere.

And if you're building a whole edit suite, with workstation, monitors, capture cards, scopes, (decks) and tons of disk space, the software is actually a small part of the overall outlay.

So from a professional point of view, FCPX stands or falls on whether it's better than the alternatives in terms of delivering what professionals need. And so far it isn't.

--------------
http://www.jonbagge.net
Jon Bagge - Editor - London, UK
Avid - FCP - After Effects
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Michael Aranyshev
[Jon Bagge] "there wasn't much FCP 1.0 did better than Avid if anything, except price. "

There were much more NLE's back then than now. Most of them tried to compete with Avid by offering select advanced features like multicam, background rendering, realtime better than Avid. But none got basic editing stuff right. FCP did.
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Keith Koby
Hey Gary,

There are those of us who are aware!

It's obviously not ready for pros in pro facilities to use quite yet. But the power underneath is overwhelmingly impressive. I for one am not getting down on the product and it's lack of certain features out of the gate because it has a huge potential upside. I'm not the first to say it looks to be the foundation of NLE for the next 10 years or so.

My bet is on the empowerment of the creative process.

Yeah the new render engine in premiere looks slick too and now that avid is opening up I'm hoping to see better things from them too. However, it's way too early to pronounce final cut dead as some are around here. (And by the way FCP 7 still opens up just fine on my machine.)

Keith
Re: Blog: The realization sets in
by Julian Bowman
Does it run as 64 bit too?


Join industry geek Gary Adcock as he explores the world and technology as it relates to Film and Video production. I am also a Glass artist, so I spend my free time creating art from silica and fire when I am not cooking.
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